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Spoilers

I've just watched..

Fuck oh fuck oh fuck.

I cried with sorrow and I cried with happiness and I cried with recognition; "Today, everybody lives."

That wasn't just the best episode of New Who so far, it was the best piece of drama I've seen in a long time.

God are we seeing Moffat growing: that wasn't just the Moffat who can do scarey and postmodern and structurally brilliant and funny and who understands just what time travel can do for narrative structure and who can catch exactly how people really do talk as opposed to the way they do in TV drama; that was the Moffat who's growing up and is trying to understand life and children and love and death. And spoilers and tech, of course.

Lots of it is ripped off from The Time Traveller's Wife, of course. But frankly my dear I don't give a damn.

No spoilers :)

EDIT: Have we EVER seen the Doctor having knowledge of his own future? So simple and yet such an interesting thought..

EDIT 2: Do we HAVE a Bad Wolf yet this season??

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I must admit, I was thinking "hang on, isn't this The Time Traveller's Wife?" at points. It helps that the casting was spot on.

(Note: however, it could be that *spoiler* was that she could use *spoiler* at the right point to make him trust her. But it's much nicer to think *spoiler*). I think you know what I mean.

The only drawback with this two parter is that the "Donna is dead meat" aspect is getting more, and more, and MORE obvious.

Yeh. What a shame. The downside of getting a really good actress I guess is you don't get her for long..

but OMG what if we got to have Alex Kingston as regular!!!! She is indeed now absolutely someone I could imagine as the Doctor's partner.

I absolutely can't see Kingston as a regular or as the Doctor's partner. I thought she was so unbearably smug in the first of the two parter, and had no redeeming features in the second episode. I really do feel that Moffat has severe inabilities when it comes to writing plausible, exciting and appealing female characters for scifi ('Girl in the Fireplace' is another perfect example). Which is odd, given that I liked his characterisations in 'Coupling'. I know a few other people who feel the same way as me about Kingston/River Song, but we seem to be in the minority! :)

Sorry I adore Alex from way bavck when she was Moll Flanders - she is so amazingly lushly sexual and yet so also so obviously smart and capable - such a wonder to see that in a woman actor in regular work..

She was alright as Moll Flanders, but as the Doctor's future life partner...I just don't see it at all. And even he didn't see it until she whispered his name...which kind of suggests that he doesn't see how he could be attracted to such a person in the future. I dunno.

In regards to the Bad Wolf in this season - there have been a few things that have recurred. There was a frequent mention of bees, as well as 'something on Donna's back' (which I have a feeling will crop up again soon), and the idea of 'songs coming to an end' (though that could have been a reference to tonight's episode). And 'darkness' seems to be a key theme as well, especially if you watch the trailer for the next few episodes that was screened recently. I have no idea how much of this, if any, is relevant to the whole 'story arc' but there doesn't seem to be anything as solid as a Bad Wolf reference, and instead lots of little clues here and there.

Other than regular appearances of Billie Piper. On a viewscreen, in London, and as a kiddie picture on the wall (with wolf) in the first part of this two-parter. Plus of course lots of references to death, leading up to Donna being DEAD MEAT.

Oh yeh, how did I forget about Rose? *blush*

My response is diametrically opposite. She makes a perfect wife for the Doctor: capable, smart, charismatic, sexy and with a maturity we've rarely seen in a companion. Alex Kingston has that Helen Mirren quality of getting hotter as she gets older.

I really don't understand some fans' knee-jerk reaction against her. Smug? Bossy? You might as well be describing the Doctor himself.

As for the Doctor's response to River, wheeeell love is an odd thing. It's not always at first sight and the circumstances of their first meeting is definitely disconcerting. I'm so pleased with this addition to the canon. It's much-needed and if the Doctor is ever going to be married, I can think of no better bride than River Song.

I think it's very clear he thinks she is hot as hell, a match for him and immensely capable. Which is very much teh Moffat pattern of the the Dr's ideal woman (cf reinette).

I adore Alex from her role in Croupier, and not just because she got her kit off.

ahem.

I really do feel that Moffat has severe inabilities when it comes to writing plausible, exciting and appealing female characters for scifi

I have to disagree. I thought the Moffat version of Madame de Pompadour was one of the most remarkable TV creations I'd seen in a long time. (My reaction to her is certainly very personal, but it's been enough to keep her in my head for the past two years. I've been reading about 18th century France because of it.) And I found both Nancy and Sally quite memorable.

I worship Alex on a number if levels - firstly, because she's a DAMNED good actress, but secondly because it's nice to see a woman who is, if one is honest, not traditionally pretty but manages to be utterly gorgeous.

yup I agree - see above..

Ditto.

I cannot *abide* Alex Kingston - she makes my teeth ache.

Thought: I wonder if Donna is going to end up in that VR with her two children and Lee...?

Nope. Donna will be dead completely and utterly, but will have done something amazing like saved the universe in noble (hah!) self sacrifice. It's the only thing that works with her arc. It all points to it.

Everyone lives - today. Everyone lives - this time. Which implies that next time...

WEll she also has to give - donna(tion). And (Ma) Donna? Agree the name\is not a coincidence! And now we have seen her with virtual kids who are seen still "alive" tucked up with Camputer Cal in beds at end.. hmm..

Interesting. The relevance of her name I agree on, but I was looking at the surname.

I'm surprised no one was interested in the Donna Nobis Pacem revelation.

I guess pointing out that Noble found its way into the English Language through Old French and not through Latin and therefore had a semantic drift is probably a little obscure and not necessarily relevant in this context? *grins*

I think it may not be too obscure for you but may be for RTD..? I know nobis is "us" and not the root of Noble but it's kind of a fun coincidence..

Damn! Won't see this 'til WEdnesday as my net connection sucks here in NYC!!!! :(

He is getting very good at this isn't he? RTD is out of here and we have the right man to write Doctor Who! The days of hiding behind the sofas are back... *big grin!*

Time Traveller's wife? I am not familar with... but then thats not unusually, so could you fell me in who and what?

It's a novel - v well read - easy to Google - Audrey someone or other I think..

Audrey Niffenegger

First: whether or not you liked it, is, technically, a spoiler. But to hell with that, for this episode, at least.

> Have we EVER seen the Doctor having knowledge of his own future?

The Valeyard? Or, to a lesser extent, any of the multi-Doctor stories (as I believe the Moff covers in the remainder of his post on OG that I can't read).

> Do we HAVE a Bad Wolf yet this season?

Candidates are we're not a couple and the bees disappearing (although that's an actual real thing---which makes it better, in my opinion).

Doctor having knowledge of his own future:

The Valeyard theoretically in Trial of a Time Lord is a future shadow of the Doctor, although there is sufficient wobble-room in that to get out.

Alien Bodies by Lawrence Miles (Eighth Doctor book much liked by Moffat) - worth getting hold of and best not to spoil the surprise.

Festival of Death by Jonathan Morris (Fourth Doctor book featuring Romana II and K9) - all resolved within one story as the Doctor arrives to discover he's greeted as a hero who's saved the day by sacrificing himself, and then sees him looping back.

Time Crash (the Children in Need special last year) - Tennant acts because he remembers Davison seeing what he does.

Blink - all of the Doctor's actions are set out in the big binder Sally Sparrow gives him.

There are hints in The Two Doctors that Doc 6 knows what's happening because Doc 2 is there (in a sequence going around restaurants in Seville), but that's too throwaway to count, I guess.

Blink is explicitly mentioned in Moffat's litle round up of when the Dr encountered "spoilers" - this Dr Who Conf is really a good one this time.

With regard to the Bad Wolf of this season: In nearly every episode, we have had an alien species taking over a planet for breeding purposes. Or having their breeding cycles interrupted and then restored. Basically, lots of riffs on the theme of "How do you perpetuate your species?"

Most of the time, the Doctor has been against the reproducing species (sometimes reluctantly). "Yes, it is right that you should breed, but not on this planet"

Given that the second major theme has been the Doctor dealing with his loneliness and the fact that he is the last Time Lord, and that he now pretty much appears to have made his peace with this (even though it still gives him a core of sadness)....

My money is on the Time Lords coming back, in a way that requires the destruction of the Earth. Rose's appearances signal a fairly large break-down in the structure of the multiverse - evidence of Time Lord interference?

Crisis on Infinite Dr Who!!

Given your wordplay of (Ma)donna above,

helen_keeble's observation, and River's recognition of Donna's name, maybe Donna will die giving birth to the Doctor's child? (Doesn't he have some mystery child? I am completely ignorant of Dr. Who prior to the Christopher Eccleston series.)

The Doctor has a granddaughter, so he must have a child somewhere!

I had tears in my eyes come the end - mostly at the bit where Donna loses her husband. It was fantastically well done.

we do have the bees thing as the "badwolf".

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