More Dr Who

[green_amber]

Long comment on SWisstone's jnl got away from me so may as well stick here or my own FL?

I do think we're getting a bit of a NME style backlash re series 3 - I was thinking in bed last night that I never expected to see what is at root a wonderful high concept show but which was always destroyed by kiddy levels of acting and SFX , given the same kind of production and scripting values of high class US TV. It's a golden age of sorts.

I also think we shouldn't lump Torchwood and Dr Who together - they have the same writer/producer yes but without Torchwood, would we be so down on this series of DW??

I watched a Tom Baker series lately and was amazed how clunky the pace, script, plot and acting was (not TB but everyone else.) It's not just the SFX that have changed from ye olde days.

Has Dr Who been destroyed by the introduction of Romance and Girls? (And um Boys?) I do think the first two series grew slowly to be All about Rose yes, and I think when she went, RTD realised this wasn't sustainable. Yes, Martha has a crush on the Doctor but no, the season hs NOT been all about that. Martha has remained competent and cheerful and in the end she has walked away from what she recognises is a crush on an unavailable older (probably Aspy :) man. If anything the theme lately is more the loneliness of the Doctor , to which M is a fairly ineffective salve - and that is a respectable high-concept skiffy theme for the Last of the Time Lords.

What is the alternative? For modern audiences, a lack of emotional involvement with the main parties will not cut it. Monster of the week, even grand cosmic epic of several weeks, would not keep the kind of audiences we have seen. I think RTD's on the whole, bar a few horrors like the Cpt Jack/Cpt Jack kiss scene, striking the right balance of soap opera/skiffy hi jinks. (Why we didn't even get a farewell kiss from Jack this time - I was SO disappointed!)

Also re the calls for Moffat to take over - y'know that I am as big a fan of Moffat's writing as ANYONE. But he's not a producer, is married to one in fact and gets HER to produce his stuff. Although he's a Dr Who fan, sure, there's no evidence he has grand visions for this series or how to modernise the Dr Who canon as RTD had. Moffat is keen on WRITING - on playing with structure, with dramatic form, and with damn good jokes. He is not really even a character guy, though I think he is growing in that direction. I am not sure he would have much to bring to being producer at all - his time would be better spent writing more than one episode per season..

Now Cornell, though, I can see...

But PS yes Catherine Tate is all wrong as a companion. But she can act. Maybe it'll be better than we think.. Also she's OLDER. Maybe she won't fall for the Doctor. Maybe she'll boss him around!! Maybe she'll be funny! Remember that RTD has a very gay penchant for bossy older sassy women (Jackie anyone?) as well as impressionable English Roses..

Comments

[the-magician.livejournal.com]

Also she's OLDER

while she's older than Martha and Rose, she's obviously a lot younger than The Doctor :-) ... and as an actress she's 39 to David Tennent's 36 (May 68 and April 71 respectively).

I will watch to see what they do with her, but I'm leaving lots of room to be pleasantly surprised!

Otherwise, yes, I pretty much agree with what you've said (and getting Moffat's missus to produce could be great fun! Though I don't think you suggested *that* ...)

[lil-shepherd.livejournal.com]

My take on Dr Who has always been that its coming destroyed great SF (the three Quatermass serials, the two Andromeda serials, The Year of the Sex Olympics, The Escape of RD7) on the BBC, until the advent of BBC2, which did occasionally produce something rather good, such as The Stone Tape and some of the stuff in Out of the Unknown.

Also that it is not and has never been SF.

As for Donna - I hated her, and I hated Jackie as well. Bossy older sassy women, maybe, but they are also bossy, older, stupid, unfunny sassy women.

[blue-condition.livejournal.com]

Donna I don't think was stupid - she adapted to the situation, she was perceptive enough to understand what the Doctor was about. Mrs Tyler was... a mistake.

The one bit of revisionism I do like in NewWho is that you can leave and come back. Really, with the vast majority of the Doctor's companions, from a story point of view he could keep going back them if he cared enough. OK, there are a few off in E-space or in alternate universes, but the majority of them are out there doing something.

School Reunion made a very, very big point. You can go back, and sometimes it hurts.

There's no reason, plot-wise, why the Doctor shouldn't be in touch with old companions. In fact there could be some very emotionally involving stuff built around 'You just wither and die'...

[surliminal.livejournal.com]

I don't gthink they should do that again - it would cheapen School Reunion - unless there was some very good reason (eg explaining how Susan was his "granddaughter"). Or Romana in a TimeLord epic.

[loveandgarbage.livejournal.com]

I think the reaction on t'internet is to the last episode specifically not series 3 as a whole. And within the last episode there were some great moments undercut for me by the Tinkerbell moment - which skewed my enjoyment. However, episodes 8 - 12 has been the strongest run of Doctor Who since it came back, possibly the strongest run ever within the show. And series 3 as a whole is the strongest since it came back (although I'm still not a fan of Dick van Dyke Tennant's accent and performance during shouty bits).

"I never expected to see what is at root a wonderful high concept show but which was always destroyed by kiddy levels of acting and SFX , given the same kind of production and scripting values of high class US TV. "

I'm not sure what you mean by scripting values of high class US TV. For me, the new Doctor Who is evidence that the scripting values of good British TV (the tradiitonal authored pieces evident from RTD's and Paul Abbott's work) have been translated to the show. The production values point I take. But scripts were often the strongest aspect of old school Who - being sufficient to let you suspend your belief. My son (4) watcehs the classic shows. He gets caught up in them. He doesn't mind the shoddy effects. He doesn't notice. What seem in modern telly longeurs are for him breathers - allowing tension to slowly ramp up again - Doctor Who was always a family show but written up to the 1970s for children, and from the 70s for intelligent 12 year olds (Philip Hinchcliffe's express advice to writers). Which was the Tom Baker story you watched? The pacing feels odd to modern viewers, but I'm of the view that modern Who, a lot of modern telly, is too quickly paced meaning insufficient time to properly build character - throwaway lines and playing on stereotypes are often used to develop character. I can't see a modern telly company being happy with the pacing of the likes of GBH or The Singing Detective or the Smiley adaptations. Doesn't mean they're not the best things that British telly produced in the past 30 years.

"I also think we shouldn't lump Torchwood and Dr Who together - they have the same writer/producer yes byt without Torchwood, would we be so down on this series of DW??"

Agreed. My views of Doctor Who this season are unrelated to Torchwood. TOrchwood was the responsibility of Chris CHibnall. His scripts were poor. The PJ Hammond episode and those with the aviatrix and Captain JAck (I can't remember the writer) the only real successes for me asider from RTD's opener. RTD was not heavily involved. I think he regrets that as the end result was a shambles. Doctor Who wasn't (until the Tinkerbell moment - accepting that you're always going to get one EVolution of the Daleks style clunker). This is not down to RTD spreading himself too thin.

I think the emotional content is one of the strengths of the new series - provided that actions have consequences. The Doctor/Master scene where the Master "dies" was great. You can believe in the emotional response. What I'm more concerned about is RTD's female characterisation - where Martha and Rose are defined - to a greater degree than they should be in my view - by their (unrequited) love. Martha was smart, and attractive - and reduced at times to the role of lovelorn teen. Given that she was less involved in most plots than Rose - this served to define her to some viewers. Her walking away and her return next year is something which holds out hope for me. She will presumably come back on her own terms. Now, if only the writers (RTD included) have the courage to let the character follow this through.

More to follow

[loveandgarbage.livejournal.com]

RTD is not the producer of new Doctor Who - he's the executive producer, the showrunner. Moffat has relied on Sue and Beryl to produce and executive produce but in each of his shows has a clear vision (the key role of the new executive producers). I completely accept that he is a writer interested in forms and strucure - where plotting is given a greater priority. This may not be a bad thing. And spearation of the roles may not be a bad thing. The show ran in the 70s with a separate producer and script editor - the vision thing shared jointly between them. Perhaps we could return to that. At the moment the script editor seems hamstrung by RTD (there have been a few slips between episodes a good script editor would pick up and RTD seems to do the rewrites). The MOffat model of working is much more common in British television. I don't think it would harm the show to separate the roles more effectively.

Anyway, this has become a very long ramble.

S

[blue-condition.livejournal.com]

You have made, almost word for word, the post I wanted to make. Thanks!

[surliminal.livejournal.com]

Actually - here's a thought - she'll come back with a BOYFRIEND. Nice pediatrician guy. And the *Doctor* will be jealous. Not sure it's an advance but it'll be different..?

[fides.livejournal.com]

I don't think any of the complaints about this season of Dr Who have related in any way to Torchwood - they were because some of the episodes were a bit crap or just didn't work. While the first half of the season had good moments it was more than a tad variable, and a lot of the plots and dialogue were both clunky and filled with bad exposition. It was only in the second half with the Dr-as-Human double, Blink and the Master arc that they really got it together. And even then the finale was RTD writing crack fanfic rather than Dr Who.

And the Jack/Jack kiss scene was just a beautiful moment and makes me sniffle everytime. But the I loved Torchwood, for all its faults, and preferred it to this season of Dr Who (although I much prefer Martha to Gwen and actually to Rose as much as I realise that is probably blasphamy). But then I find Ten a bit 'energiser-timelord-on-steroids' which for me gets a touch irritating after a while not to mention the constant OMGHUMANSAREGREAT!!! which I was so glad the Master called him on.

[andrewducker]

I agree that old Who had problems. But I'm not comparing Who with it. I'm comparing Who with the TV I'm watching now. And sometimes it's great, and sometimes it's not. My problems with the last two episodes are ones I'd have with any TV...

[ivory-goddess.livejournal.com]

I'd agree with other comments that any perceived backlash is more about (aspects of) the final episode than this series as a whole.

I for one thought this series had some damned good episodes, but I was completely thrown - I mean snapped back to reality thrown - by the 'Dobby the House Elf Dr' CGI thing. I thought "that's it, it's jumped the shark, it's over." I'm willing to suspend disbelief when effects aren't up to scratch if the story is good (hell, I've watched some Blake's 7 episodes this year!) but I was brought to a screeching halt at that point.

And then there was the ending. The concept behind the 'I believe in fairies Timelords" I could cope with. Even the glowing blue and floating bit would just about have been ok by itself, tho' still twee. But coming after the CG Dr it was too much. I don't think I could watch the episode again.

Catherine Tate I would have been willing to reserve judgement on if I hadn't seen her Xmas episode. I was dubious about Billy Piper at first but she was fine. CT's character will really need to have grown up considerably to be bearable over 13 episodes.

[blue-condition.livejournal.com]

> Maybe she'll boss him around!!

Mel. Carrot Juice.

Please no.

Stop.

[surliminal.livejournal.com]

??

[loveandgarbage.livejournal.com]

Trial of a time lord - episodes 9 - 12 (popularly known as Terror of the Vervoids (or attack of the phallus headed plant people)) and 13 - 14 (The Ultimate Foe) where Bonnie Langford played a screechy bossy companion who attempted to force Doctor 6 to eat healthily and force fed him carrot juice. It represents the nadir of Doctor Who. I believe Mr condition is suggesting that it is not necessarily good for the show. Similar references could be made to Tegan (from the Doc 5 era - although she was a little more successful).

To be bossy and not irritate the audience you need to be an equal - Romana I.

[blue-condition.livejournal.com]

I think in general I'm prepared to give Catherine Tate the benefit of the doubt. She's a very good character actress and a f---ing awful comedienne, if her own show is anything to go by.

Donna was loud and screechy in a loud and screechy Christmas special. But Christmas specials of [b]everything[/b] (apart from Morecambe and Wise) are never as good as the real thing, and Donna's last few scenes were very well-acted.

I think she'll be coming back as a wiser, more settled character, someone who's consciously decided that she wants to get out there and see a bit of the universe that was offered to her. She won't get it all right, she won't deal well with all of it, but I think Donna will throw herself into the experience.

(thinks, for any Moorcock fans - Tate would make a bloody marvellous Mrs Cornelius wouldn't she? The late Joan Sims would've been ideal for the older Mrs C...)

[swisstone.livejournal.com]

Moorcock himself always saw Irene Handl in the role.

[blue-condition.livejournal.com]

Interesting, right from a character point of view but Handl was the definitive little old lady... whereas Mrs C was a Big Lass... ;)

[loveandgarbage.livejournal.com]

But Christmas specials of [b]everything[/b] (apart from Morecambe and Wise) are never as good as the real thing,

True on the whole but I'd also except the Steptoe and Son special where Harold is trying to go on holiday and The Good Life episode where Margot's Christmas is cancelled.

[swisstone.livejournal.com]

For modern audiences, a lack of emotional involvement with the main parties will not cut it.

But as zotz said, that doesn't necessarily mean there has to be anything romantic or sexual going on. There's plenty of real emotion on display between the Fourth Doctor and Sarah Jane Smith, without a hint of unrequited love. As I said in my main post, I can't help but feel that going down the love story route, which is what every other tv series does, is reductive, rather than horizon-broadening. I feel the same about BSG - the relationship between Starbuck and Apollo was far more interesting when they were just mates than after it was revealed that they had the crazy hots for each other.